I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

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dan
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I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:21 am

SPCR has several reviews of CPU coolers at various fan speeds.

thanks to fanless PSU like seasonic fanless and SSD's and amd/haswell integrated GPU, it should be possible to build completely "silent" no-fans no-moving parts pc's.

which CPU heat pipes are best for fanless/passive cooling? up to how many watts can they cool passively?

what CPU are best candidates for fanless cooling?

faugusztin
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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by faugusztin » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:20 am

There is no such thing as fanless cooling inside a typical ATX case. The only option for fanless cooling are things like the Streacom cases, which have huge external heatsinks, and even those struggle with 65W TDP and higher.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:10 pm

faugusztin wrote:There is no such thing as fanless cooling inside a typical ATX case. The only option for fanless cooling are things like the Streacom cases, which have huge external heatsinks, and even those struggle with 65W TDP and higher.
mac g4 cube was fanless

as long as the atx case has PSU bottom mounted with vents on top i don't c y not.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by faugusztin » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:35 pm

Because without a fan the heat will accumulate. Even with top of the case open, the heat rises too slow for any prolonged high load. You can try it yourself - build a system in open, put on it something like HR-02 Macho without a fan, keep the board in vertical position and watch the CPU temperatures raising even in open air. And inside case, it is even worse.

The only one completely passive solution without huge external aluminum blocks like Streacom cases i know about is this cooler plus a case which actually allows use of that cooler :
http://www.nofancomputer.com/eng/products/CR-95C.php

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by xan_user » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:46 pm

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flemeister
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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by flemeister » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:15 pm

Any thoughts on this?

http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/rmp_sg_whi ... nt_configs

I thought I was being pretty cautious when making that page, but after seeing this thread I'm a bit doubtful...

The Aerocool Black Hawk is the closest available option in Australia to the Nofan cases. I'd otherwise use the NZXT Vulcan if it was still available. In both cases, plenty of ventilation holes, particularly on the top and side panels.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:17 pm

apple pulled it off w/ G4 cube

i think that w/a undervolted underclocked cpu w/GPU w/TDP of 25 watts w/large heatpipe in ATX case w/vents on top and large heatpipe adjacent to vents it could work

intel claims 14nm results in 35% decrease in power over 22nm

i actually plan to eventually build such a machine

This is SPCR so hopefully the mods can publish articles on building a completely passively cooled machine in ATX

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by Vicotnik » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:37 pm

Why ATX size? Seems we're heading towards fanless, but also smaller in size (NUC etc). Fanless has been doable since Sandy Bridge at least, what's there to write about? :) With a low TDP CPU, no discreet graphics card and an SSD fanless is easy. If you're talking 25W you can pretty much go with regular fan cooled stuff and turn off the fans.
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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by Pappnaas » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:18 am

flemeister wrote:Any thoughts on this?

http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/rmp_sg_whi ... nt_configs
At a quick glance i couldn't figure what they use to cool the cpu. Apart from that, nothing really new insinde.
dan wrote:apple pulled it off w/ G4 cube
Apple build the whole system. Thats a thing you won't pull off, because you cannot construct your mainboard yourself. IF you were able to customize all your parts at OEM level, you could build your own passive system, but i seriously doubt you'll be able to pay the bill.
flemeister wrote:intel claims 14nm results in 35% decrease in power over 22nm

i actually plan to eventually build such a machine
This is totally doable. Take a cpu with TDP not exceeding 45W and a suited case/cooler combo and you're good to go. But if you want something as powerfull as i5-K or any full fledged i7/Xeon you will run into many problems cooling something with more than [email protected] Some streacom users reported they encountered serious problems with cpus at or over 90W TDP.

If you need any midsize GPU card a full passive system will probably not be able to cope with thermals rising from cpu and gpu without any case fans.

IMHO i see no real need to test a full passive ATX system, because if i can cool it without fans, why should i bother taking a case as big as a ATX tower? And if i need an ATX tower because all my parts won't fit, then some slow spinning case (aka inaudible) fans will give you more use at less hustle.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by edh » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:13 am

dan wrote:mac g4 cube was fanless
The Mac G4 Cube was not ATX sized and the TDP would have been under 100W. It was hardly mainstream levels of power. There is absolutely no reason why this can not be achieved but it is NOT a normal ATX system. See the forthcoming Streacom DB4 for a fanless cube based system and that is rated for up to 260W which is able to cope with the overwhelming majority of configurations so is far better than the Mac G4 Cube as a cooling design.
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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:16 am

dan wrote:
faugusztin wrote:There is no such thing as fanless cooling inside a typical ATX case. The only option for fanless cooling are things like the Streacom cases, which have huge external heatsinks, and even those struggle with 65W TDP and higher.
mac g4 cube was fanless


The G4 cube never worked flawlessly (one popular mod was "adding a fan"), but moreover it used a sub 30W CPU (maybe 18W?) with an entry 2D graphics (so I agree with faugusztin about being lower than 50/60W tdp).

I always dreamed of a fanless ATX system: I started with a fanless Solo/P150 maybe a tad less than 7 years ago (with a Core 2 Duo E4400 passively cooled by a ducted Thermalright High Riser and a passively cooled Nvidia 7600GT by XFX, powered by a Fortron Zen): what an headache it was, particularly in summertime (so I agree with faugusztin about "there is no such thing as fanless cooling inside a typical ATX case")...

Well, long story short, I still have that case, but now it sports seven (7) fans, and it runs a lot cooler, a lot more reliably, a lot faster (obviously: since then just the HR is still in place inside it, but paired with a couple of PWM fans), and about as quiet as when it was fanless (as overheating electronics often suffers of several whinings, IME).

Among the only few ATX options available, I would point you out to the Nofen CS-series (I like a lot the very pricey model 70), to be paired with the CR-series heatsinks: but personally I would not pair them with "enthusiast-range" parts. Take a look at their offerings on some websites such as quietpc.com, there they starts from something more than 100 euros (CS+CR).
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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:24 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
dan wrote:
faugusztin wrote:There is no such thing as fanless cooling inside a typical ATX case. The only option for fanless cooling are things like the Streacom cases, which have huge external heatsinks, and even those struggle with 65W TDP and higher.
mac g4 cube was fanless


The G4 cube never worked flawlessly (one popular mod was "adding a fan"), but moreover it used a sub 30W CPU (maybe 18W?) with an entry 2D graphics (so I agree with faugusztin about being lower than 50/60W tdp).

I always dreamed of a fanless ATX system: I started with a fanless Solo/P150 maybe a tad less than 7 years ago (with a Core 2 Duo E4400 passively cooled by a ducted Thermalright High Riser and a passively cooled Nvidia 7600GT by XFX, powered by a Fortron Zen): what an headache it was, particularly in summertime (so I agree with faugusztin about "there is no such thing as fanless cooling inside a typical ATX case")...

Well, long story short, I still have that case, but now it sports seven (7) fans, and it runs a lot cooler, a lot more reliably, a lot faster (obviously: since then just the HR is still in place inside it, but paired with a couple of PWM fans), and about as quiet as when it was fanless (as overheating electronics often suffers of several whinings, IME).

Among the only few ATX options available, I would point you out to the Nofen CS-series (I like a lot the very pricey model 70), to be paired with the CR-series heatsinks: but personally I would not pair them with "enthusiast-range" parts. Take a look at their offerings on some websites such as quietpc.com, there they starts from something more than 100 euros (CS+CR).

I know that Intel sells 4.5 watt TDP Haswell to laptops.

Intel's New 4.5W Core “Haswell” Chips Blur the Line Between ...
http://www.xbitlabs.com/.../20130723192 ... re_Has...‎
Jul 23, 2013 - ... lineup of ultra-low-power chips it has to offer, yet are based on high-performance Haswell micro-architecture. With power consumption of only ...

Intel starts shipping 4.5 w Haswell Core i3 chip for laptops - Geek.com
http://www.geek.com/.../intel-starts-sh ... for-la...‎
Sep 10, 2013 - So what exactly will this new Core i3 offer over existing low-power chips in the ... The chip's Thermal Design Power (TDP) is actually 11.5 watts, ...

Intel readies first fanless Haswell processor for tablets and ...
www.phonearena.com › News‎
Jul 24, 2013 - Needless to say the 4.5 watts fanless Haswell is destined for tablets and ... of power, compared to the lowest power envelope of 6 watts that the ...

There are ultrabooks and tablets with no fans using Haswell, so if you can have fanless Haswell in an ultrabook slim form factor, using a huge heatsink in ATX should also be possible.

Does anyone know the lowest watt Haswell TDP for the desktop you can buy at newegg? specific model/pricing

in a few months a 14nm Haswell is coming out.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by faugusztin » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:48 am

1) "4.5W Haswell" is a bit of a lie. It does 4.5W at lowest clock, that is 800MHz. Nominal TDP for those CPU is 11.5W, at 1.4-1.6Ghz. And you can bet that in case of those passive tablets and ultrabooks will do max few seconds at anything more than 800MHz, becuase thermal throttling will became an issue soon with the passive solutions.
2) the lowest desktop Haswell TDP is 35W. i7-4765T, i5-4570T, i3-4330T, i3-4330TE, Pentium G3420T/G3320TE/G3220T.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:54 am

faugusztin wrote:1) "4.5W Haswell" is a bit of a lie. It does 4.5W at lowest clock, that is 800MHz. Nominal TDP for those CPU is 11.5W, at 1.4-1.6Ghz. And you can bet that in case of those passive tablets and ultrabooks will do max few seconds at anything more than 800MHz, becuase thermal throttling will became an issue soon with the passive solutions.
2) the lowest desktop Haswell TDP is 35W. i7-4765T, i5-4570T, i3-4330T, i3-4330TE, Pentium G3420T/G3320TE/G3220T.
thanks for replying!

well fanless haswell tablets and ultrabooks/laptops do exist.

do you know if 35 watts can be cooled passively, assuming no video card?

when 14nm rolls around intel claims 35% reduction in power so 25 watt or 20 watt rockwell might be sold?

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by faugusztin » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:09 am

1) Yes, 35W can be cooled passively - on a open case (benchtable, case with top full of holes), or when the heat is moved outside of the case (cases like Streacom).
2) I doubt you will see LGA desktop CPU at anything lower than 35W, they are going to pack more performance in that TDP instead of lowering TDP. Desktop CPU are not meant to be super power saving, that is not market segment intended for those CPU.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by flemeister » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:58 am

Xeon E3-1220L V2

Ivy Bridge (LGA1155)
2.3GHz (3.5GHz max turbo)
2C/4T
17W

* CPU World
* http://ark.intel.com/products/65735

The catch? No integrated graphics.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by Abula » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:27 am

flemeister wrote:Xeon E3-1220L V2

Ivy Bridge (LGA1155)
2.3GHz (3.5GHz max turbo)
2C/4T
17W

* CPU World
* http://ark.intel.com/products/65735

The catch? No integrated graphics.
When i was building my server, i kinda wanted one (not v2 but v1), but its an OEM CPU and hard to get, and extremely expensive for what it is, from what i remember was above $300.

@dan, why not build around a Nofan95, it can handle quads, i bet it can do a 35W TPD easily. I'm about to redo my Q08 download station with NoFan95 on i3 2100T, but not going fully fanless, im swaping the fans, front NF-A14 PWM and top NF-S12A both running at 200rpm or so, mostly because i cant hear those fans at those rpms.

Just a side note, the new passivly oriented thermalright CPU cooler is out, HR22, hoping SPCR can get a sample to test soon, but i somewhat doubt it will match the NoFAN95 on pure passive cooling, but with a low rpm i bet this thing will be really nice, the only downside i see its its price.
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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:04 pm

flemeister wrote:Xeon E3-1220L V2

Ivy Bridge (LGA1155)
2.3GHz (3.5GHz max turbo)
2C/4T
17W

* CPU World
* http://ark.intel.com/products/65735

The catch? No integrated graphics.
maybe then add a fanless passively cooled GPU

dan
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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:04 pm

faugusztin wrote:1) Yes, 35W can be cooled passively - on a open case (benchtable, case with top full of holes), or when the heat is moved outside of the case (cases like Streacom).
2) I doubt you will see LGA desktop CPU at anything lower than 35W, they are going to pack more performance in that TDP instead of lowering TDP. Desktop CPU are not meant to be super power saving, that is not market segment intended for those CPU.
my gigabyte allows for undervolting and underclocking

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:10 pm

Abula wrote:
flemeister wrote:Xeon E3-1220L V2

Ivy Bridge (LGA1155)
2.3GHz (3.5GHz max turbo)
2C/4T
17W

* CPU World
* http://ark.intel.com/products/65735

The catch? No integrated graphics.
When i was building my server, i kinda wanted one (not v2 but v1), but its an OEM CPU and hard to get, and extremely expensive for what it is, from what i remember was above $300.

@dan, why not build around a Nofan95, it can handle quads, i bet it can do a 35W TPD easily. I'm about to redo my Q08 download station with NoFan95 on i3 2100T, but not going fully fanless, im swaping the fans, front NF-A14 PWM and top NF-S12A both running at 200rpm or so, mostly because i cant hear those fans at those rpms.

Just a side note, the new passivly oriented thermalright CPU cooler is out, HR22, hoping SPCR can get a sample to test soon, but i somewhat doubt it will match the NoFAN95 on pure passive cooling, but with a low rpm i bet this thing will be really nice, the only downside i see its its price.

nofan + 35 watt cpu with no fan underneath an ATX antec like case w/ vents on top should work

i think SPCR should offer fanless passively cooled builds

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:07 pm

dan wrote:i think SPCR should offer fanless passively cooled builds

"Who" should do "what"?
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Luca

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by Cistron » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:11 am

dan wrote:i think SPCR should offer fanless passively cooled builds
Hmm, considering that everything is free, I'm pretty happy with what Mike, Lawrence and their other helpers are doing.

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:57 am

Cistron wrote:
dan wrote:i think SPCR should offer fanless passively cooled builds
Hmm, considering that everything is free, I'm pretty happy with what Mike, Lawrence and their other helpers are doing.
w/SSD's and apple imac and mac mini's out there along with tablets and cell phones and ultrabooks

i think SPCR should also offer research and articles in the fanless/passively cooled w/SSD

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by quest_for_silence » Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:30 am

dan wrote:i think SPCR should also offer research and articles in the fanless/passively cooled w/SSD


If you mind, you might also look elsewhere, as FanlessTech.
Regards,
Luca

Support SPCR, use these links when you buy: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg

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Re: I wish SPCR also evaluates fanless/passive cooling

Post by dan » Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:19 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
dan wrote:i think SPCR should also offer research and articles in the fanless/passively cooled w/SSD


If you mind, you might also look elsewhere, as FanlessTech.
interesting any reviews?

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