Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by UK_Peter » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:21 pm

Interestingly, the UK importer of Scythe products says they have no plans to stock this cooler. They did have Kotetsu's when it was first released, so I'm not sure what to make of that. Poor sales?

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:29 am

UK_Peter wrote:Interestingly, the UK importer of Scythe products says they have no plans to stock this cooler. They did have Kotetsu's when it was first released, so I'm not sure what to make of that. Poor sales?

If you have a such a communication, and you still want one, you should just write to Scythe EU: I'm pretty sure that if you want it, they will send you a Kotetsu (I think for the MSRP, so about 23Gbp + VAT, you may order even a second fan and mounting brackets for about 5Gbp for a push-pull config).
Shipping charge from them (Germany) to me (Italy) have always been very reasonable, so I think they should be similar even to UK.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by lodestar » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:40 am

I have found at least one UK retailer who has the Kotetsu in stock, although only the one. It is listed at £26.40 which seems good value. The main competitor in this price bracket is probably the Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO which from most outlets is a couple of pounds cheaper than the Scythe.

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by UK_Peter » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:33 am

lodestar wrote:I have found at least one UK retailer who has the Kotetsu in stock, although only the one.
Good find lodestar! I tried Dabs, ebuyer, eBay et al but didn't think to try the smaller retailers.

I need to replace the Scythe cooler in an old E6400 computer as the push-fit clips in the mobo no longer hold and it needs a 2kg weight on top to make it work :o The Kotetsu looks performan t and cheap, so seems ideal.
quest_for_silence wrote:If you have a such a communication, and you still want one, you should just write to Scythe EU
I have and forwarded the response from their importer and asked for a price. I don't get it: as one of the best performing coolers SPCR has tested, why is the Kotetsu not imported here?

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by quest_for_silence » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:57 am

UK_Peter wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:If you have a such a communication, and you still want one, you should just write to Scythe EU

I have and forwarded the response from their importer and asked for a price. I don't get it: as one of the best performing coolers SPCR has tested, why is the Kotetsu not imported here?
In case, I would have put an even more straight question to them: "As it isn't stocked here, can I order one directly from you?".

Anyway, if you opened a ticket filling the sales team contact form at: http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/company/contact.html I guess either herr Dirk Meier or herr Viktor Dillmann should get back in touch with you.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Abula » Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:24 pm

Impressive how it has come down in pice now, Scythe Cooling Motherboard SCKTT-1000 $37.39 free shipping, its starting to get into the 212 range, and with its performance and good included fan, seems like the best cooler in the market.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:35 pm

yep
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by dhanson865 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:50 am

xan_user wrote:Fantastic! Who's selling them in the US?
dhanson865 wrote:just did a search for the Scythe Kotetsu that we couldn't get when SPCR first reviewed it.

http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=FAN-SKIT1K $42 US
http://www.outletpc.com/ly8755-scythe-k ... ooler.html $46 US
http://www.rakuten.com/prod/scythe-sckt ... 10414.html $50 US

seems like it is plenty available in the US now.
Still cheaper than any HS that tested above it on the comparison table.

edit if you go to http://smile.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00JZCHSOK platinum micro has it for $39.24 with free shipping.

and if for some reason they sell out Amazon has it for $41.11
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Please put a country in your profile if you haven't already.
This site is international but I'll assume you are in the US if you don't tell me otherwise.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Bob.Blockerlundt » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:02 pm

I installed the Scythe Kotetsu on a Haswell Pentium G3470 (at stock speed), and the BIOS is reporting temperature at 49 C idle temperature. Does that seem right?

Feels high to me since my ambient temperature is 25 C and I just turned on the computer from cold boot and am just sitting on the BIOS screen doing nothing. This computer was off since yesterday, so I would expect starting temperature to match ambient temperature, but the moment I turned on the computer, the BIOS was already showing 40 C. That is odd as well, but maybe that is just a default value? It moved up to 47-49 C within a minute or two, settling there for the past 20 minutes now.

For background, here are the other components involved in this build:
- MSI B85M-G43 micro ATX motherboard (default Kotetsu fan is plugged into motherboard)
- Antec P280 case (default fan configuration with the two top fans and one rear fan, fan switch powered by power supply, and all switches set at Low (though I also tried all on High, and saw no difference))
- 2 x 4 GB Crucial Ballistix memory at stock speed 1333 MHz
- Antec EA-550 Platinum power supply
- SSD and HDD are not connected yet

I am wondering if I did something wrong with the installation, specifically with the amount of thermal paste and/or the tension in the cross bar mount.

I used the thermal paste that came with the Kotetsu. Was that packet meant to be a "single serving"? It seemed like a lot. I was aiming for pea sized amount in the center of the CPU to be quashed by the heat sink. But unlike the thermal paste I used before, the Kotetsu paste was kind of runny with liquid-y parts and paste-y parts separate, not uniform. I ended up with a bit more than I originally planned, maybe a lima bean sized glob and liquid puddling around it. I used about half the packet. Does this sound right, or match any of your experiences?

For the cross bar mount, the instructions warn against over tightening. So I tried various tightness levels, afraid of stripping or cracking something, but just got it so the heat sink base would no longer slide around with gentle pressure. But maybe it is still too loose? How do you tell how much tightness is enough?

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by CA_Steve » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:30 pm

You can generally expect an idling CPU to run 5-8C over ambient. Sounds like the cooler is not seated well....and yeah, too much paste. That said, most of it should have been squeezed out when seated. If the paste had separated out, you'd want to remix it before applying. That said, I haven't seen a paste separate out before.

Time to remove, clean, and reseat the cooler. When you remove it, take a look at the paste pattern on the cooler and the CPU. Maybe post the pictures here. If you see a lot of paste and fractal-like patterns, that's a give-away that the cooler is poorly seated.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Abula » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:11 pm

Check if the CPU is downclocking, sometimes the power settings dont allow it, and thus high idle temps, still i would do the re setting of the Kotetsu like Steve said, but do check that the CPU is downclocking to 800mhz when not in use.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by quest_for_silence » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:49 pm

Bob.Blockerlundt wrote:How do you tell how much tightness is enough?

When you're not able to tighten the two screws anymore: I usually tight them together, two-three turns one screw, then two-three turns the other, until they both just stop (I mean, I'm not able to make any more turns, but just a small movement of a few degrees, if any).

By the way, unless it's defective, it's not a matter of the mounting cross-bar: on the other hand, from your description the paste would look gone bad (I don't know why), and if I were you I'd use some third party paste when re-seating the cooler (any averagely good product will work well: Arctic Silver Ceramique 2, Arctic Cooling MX4, Gelid GC-2/GC-3, Noctua NH-T1, Prolimatech PK-1/PK-2/PK-3, Thermalright Chill Factor 3, Zalman STG-2 and so on, pick the cheapest you'll find).
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Bob.Blockerlundt » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:22 pm

Thank you all for the replies.

The first thing I tried was tightening the screws of the cross bar mount. That made a big difference as I was able to get from 47 - 49 C down to 36 - 38 C. That was much better, but I still wanted to see what the paste patterns looked like. So I removed the heatsink and took some photos as suggested. I then cleaned up and tried reseating.

Here are 6 photos in an imgur album:
http://imgur.com/a/FGtWD
CA_Steve wrote:If you see a lot of paste and fractal-like patterns, that's a give-away that the cooler is poorly seated.
The 1st photo shows the paste pattern on the processor. Looks like excess paste got squeezed out and even onto surrounding components (probably from the heatsink sliding around while I was working with it). Does this pic show what you mean by the fractal-like patterns, meaning the cooler was poorly seated?

The 2nd photo shows the bottom of the Kotestu heatsink.
CA_Steve wrote:If the paste had separated out, you'd want to remix it before applying. That said, I haven't seen a paste separate out before.
I remixed the remainder of the Kotetsu thermal paste in the plastic sleeve bag it came in. I cleaned up the processor and heatsink. And the 3rd photo shows the initial blob I put on for the reseat attempt. Does that blob look like a reasonable amount?

The initial blob was not centered nor symmetrical, so I tried manually spread it out, ending up adding more paste too. The 4th photo shows the result. Too much?
quest_for_silence wrote:
Bob.Blockerlundt wrote:How do you tell how much tightness is enough?

When you're not able to tighten the two screws anymore: I usually tight them together, two-three turns one screw, then two-three turns the other, until they both just stop (I mean, I'm not able to make any more turns, but just a small movement of a few degrees, if any).
The 5th and 6th photos show the left and right side of the cross bar mount, with the screws tightened. The first time I did this, I tightened until the screws stopped. But I guess I was using a loose grip. This was when I was getting 47 - 49 C. When I used a stronger grip, I could still turn the screws more, until they stopped again. Then I could get 36 - 38 C. But as a test, if I used an even stronger grip, the screws could go further still. This is sort of what I was afraid of, not knowing how much is enough. I suppose a torque wrench with a recommended reading like they do for tires would be more precise, but maybe not available for computer screws, haha.

Anyway, how do the photos look? There is a gap of air space between the cross bar mount and the metal plate things below. Does that gap match your experience? They are not supposed to be flush/touching, right?

I'm not sure if it's just my imagination, but it seems like if I screw the ends down further, the bar itself is starting to slightly curve. Normal?

After all this, I checked temps again, and I see idle is running 36 - 38 C as above. So, if it was poorly seated above, does that mean it is still poorly seated now?
CA_Steve wrote:You can generally expect an idling CPU to run 5-8C over ambient.
So with my current ambient at 25 C, does 36 - 38 C sound too high for idling? I read that Haswell tends to run a bit hotter than Sandy Bridge.
Abula wrote:Check if the CPU is downclocking, sometimes the power settings dont allow it, and thus high idle temps, still i would do the re setting of the Kotetsu like Steve said, but do check that the CPU is downclocking to 800mhz when not in use.
Thanks for the tip. I'm not sure how to check this, but will look into it.
quest_for_silence wrote:By the way, unless it's defective, it's not a matter of the mounting cross-bar: on the other hand, from your description the paste would look gone bad (I don't know why), and if I were you I'd use some third party paste when re-seating the cooler (any averagely good product will work well: Arctic Silver Ceramique 2, Arctic Cooling MX4, Gelid GC-2/GC-3, Noctua NH-T1, Prolimatech PK-1/PK-2/PK-3, Thermalright Chill Factor 3, Zalman STG-2 and so on, pick the cheapest you'll find).
I may try that next. If 36 - 38 C still sounds too high, maybe a different paste would help.

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by xan_user » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:15 am

Bob.Blockerlundt wrote: maybe a different paste would help.
not likely.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:44 am

- The first try wasn't seated well. You can tell by the fractal pattern in the northwest quadrant and by the lake o' paste still on the IHS. You aren't making a double stuff oreo :D A grain of rice sized dot will do. In an ideal situation where both the IHS and cooler base are really flat, the paste merely fills in between the micro machined hills and valleys and leaves a nearly transparent very thin layer across the surface.
- The second try's temps are closer to reality...but still a tad high. At initial build, I had a 7C rise above ambient with an i5 Haswell. It could still be a seating issue...but, you have done some decent tightening.

How are you measuring temps? What tool/app?
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by MikeC » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:06 am

Just seeing your CPU & heatsink are enough for me to tell you without a doubt: WAY TOO MUCH THERMAL PASTE! Both times. The correct amount is no more than a BB-sized ball (4.3 to 4.4 mm (0.171 to 0.173 in) in diameter) right in the center. When the heatsink is mounted, it spreads pretty evenly out to the edges. If the ambient temp is low, some types of goop won't spread that well, but the solution is to simply run Prime95 for 20 minutes to heat the thing up and soften it. Then turn it off, let it all reset, and the CPU/heatsink will be nicely bonded with a super thin layer of goop.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Bob.Blockerlundt » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:50 pm

Thanks all for the interesting and helpful comments.

I enjoyed seeing "Chocolate" listed as the worst thermal paste on that bar graph, haha. But I guess the point was the Scythe thermal paste (assuming it is the same one packed with the Kotetsu?) was only 3 degrees away from the top performer.
CA_Steve wrote:How are you measuring temps? What tool/app?
At first, I was just using the BIOS home screen for my MSI motherboard, which reported 36 - 38 C for both the first attempt (after tightening screws) and the second attempt (less paste, but apparently still too much). But maybe the MSI BIOS screen is not representative of a proper idle temperature.

So, I installed and booted into Ubuntu 14.04 and found a program called psensor, which breaks down separate temperatures for "Physical id 0", "Core 0", and "Core 1". It reports 31 - 33 C for Core 1 and a even cooler than that on Core 0. It also shows CPU at 1% to 2%, so this is probably a better representation of idle.

Next, I looked for Prime95, and found the Linux version p95v287.linux64. I ran ./mprime > Options/Torture Test > 2 threads > Test type "1 = Small FFTs (maximum heat and FPU stress, data fits in L2 cache, RAM not tested much)". Psensor showed load temperatures during this test to be about 47 - 49 C.

Image

So, with these hopefully better measurement tools, how does 33 C idle and 49 C load sound?
MikeC wrote:Just seeing your CPU & heatsink are enough for me to tell you without a doubt: WAY TOO MUCH THERMAL PASTE! Both times. The correct amount is no more than a BB-sized ball (4.3 to 4.4 mm (0.171 to 0.173 in) in diameter) right in the center. When the heatsink is mounted, it spreads pretty evenly out to the edges. If the ambient temp is low, some types of goop won't spread that well, but the solution is to simply run Prime95 for 20 minutes to heat the thing up and soften it. Then turn it off, let it all reset, and the CPU/heatsink will be nicely bonded with a super thin layer of goop.
Thank you for the guidance and detailed numbers. I cleaned up and tried again based on your recommendations. I found it hard to get that level of precision (between 4.3 and 4.4 mm) using the included plastic flap sleeve. Maybe a traditional tube with a conical tip would offer more control. Anyway, I did use less paste this time, tightened the screws as before (maybe a little extra tighter), and re-ran the above tests. Both MSI BIOS screen and psensors in Ubuntu showed similar temperatures as above. I ran Prime95 for 20 minutes, also getting similar temperatures as above, and now have the machine turned off to let it reset. I'll see tomorrow if there is any difference. But even if not, I think I'm okay now with these temps. (Somebody give me some reassurance! :-))

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by quest_for_silence » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:15 am

Bob.Blockerlundt wrote:Somebody give me some reassurance

That's fine, enjoy your build. :wink:
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by CA_Steve » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:26 am

Don't think the CPU idles the cores when in BIOS, so that was part of the problem.

The idle and load temps look great now. You are good to go.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by MikeC » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:07 am

yup, 49C at load is great. 8)
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Nedzzo » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:10 am

Hi, I bought one of these and am building today.

Here is my build thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=68824

The short version: A Skylake Intel Core i7-6700K 4.0GHz on a Asus MAXIMUS VIII HERO ATX LGA1151 in a Fortress FT05 case with the Kotetsu.

I have the cpu and the Kotetsu brackets in but haven't put the thermal paste or the cooler on yet.

Trying to decide on the paste. It came with some but I also bought some Artic Silver 5 which I assume is better but wondering on everyone's opinion.
Also last time I did a build (4 years ago) I did the pea method but Artic suggests the vertical line.
Also they recommend tinting, which I didn't do last time, thoughts?
http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appmeth ... e_v1.1.pdf

The last thing is that in the review he takes the heatsink off to look at how the paste spread? I didn't do that before, is that something I should do or is that just for review purposes ? http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1391-page3.html

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by CA_Steve » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:36 am

Here's the best advice:
Arctic Silver Thermal Compound Precautions:
1) Don't put it in your mouth.
:) It's right up there with Caution: Coffee is Hot.

In reality, if you have good contact between the CPU IHS and the heatsink, there's only a few degrees difference between pastes (extreme liquid metal etc. TIMs aside). So, use whichever one you like. You only need a plump grain of rice sized application. Again, if there is good contact, the TIM gets squeezed to a very thin, somewhat transparent layer. No need to preapply with credit card.

No need to remove the cooler after installation unless you need to debug high temps.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Nedzzo » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:32 pm

Have it mounted now but trying to get the fan on. I need some tiny hands !

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:16 am

Nedzzo wrote:Have it mounted now but trying to get the fan on. I need some tiny hands !

Fix the fan to the cooler with some adhesive tape, than fix the clip on it, eventually remove the tape.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Nedzzo » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:24 am

Well I lost internet Saturday night and didn't get it back until Monday.
I ended up taking the mobo out and then putting the fan on, then the mobo back in.

I will remember the tape for next time although one side is so close to the case edge I still might have had problems.

I will post some pictures in the build thread eventually.

edirolx

Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by edirolx » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:54 pm

Hi,

I'm troubleshooting my Scythe Kotetsu install and I think I'm getting above average temps with my 4690k (88TDP). I'm using Prime95x4 and HWMonitor to monitor the CPU package temp.

With the stock Intel cooler I was getting 30/31C idle and 86/87C at full load.
With the Kotetsu I have similar idle temps, but at load 64-67C @ 100% (1400rpm) fan speed.
At 32% (650rpm) at full load, the CPU sits around 70-74C.

I've tried remounting the heatsink a few times with similar results. Tried various paste application methods as well (dot/line/spread) and it's about the same each time.

Any tips to help improve the temps?

Thanks,
- Edirol

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by quest_for_silence » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:50 pm

edirolx wrote:Any tips to help improve the temps?

First of all, use RealTemp to monitor the cores DTS (core temp): then, how much high your ambient temp is? Which thermal paste did you use?
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matt_garman
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by matt_garman » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:38 pm

Anyone know where to get a second set of fan clips in order to use the Kotetsu with two fans in a push-pull configuration? I'm using this heatsink on an E5-1230v3 in an iStarUSA S-35 case (build thead here). While my current CPU temps are fine, in this chassis, the heatsink fan(s) become part of the overall front-to-back case airflow. So more is helpful not just for CPU cooling, but any front-mounted drives as well.

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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by NeilBlanchard » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:10 am

I would email Scythe for your area, and ask them about buying a second set of clips.

Moving air with fans inside the case is muddled, at best. A duct would be far more useful - IF this is a problem. Ait is a fluid, so pulling it out of the case or pushing it into the case are going to be far more useful for a given number of fans -and their associated noise.
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Re: Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler: A Compact King

Post by Vicotnik » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:00 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:I would email Scythe for your area, and ask them about buying a second set of clips.
Sometimes you have to ask twice, since the obvious response is: use zip ties. :)
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