Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

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Victor
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Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:46 am

Hello everyone. First of all let me say hello as this is my first post. I have been following the website and forum for quite a while, but never got into creating an account. Now that the need for guidance and advice has arisen I was left with the obvious choice of making one.

So basically I am building a powerful mATX Hackintosh/Gaming PC that will feature a Gigabyte GA-Z97MX-Gaming 5 motherboard, an i7 4790K, either a 241mm (9.5") GTX 760 or a 170mm (6.7") GTX 970 mini-ITX graphics card. For CPU cooler I am basically going for a top down fan, I am still deciding between the Be Quiet Shadow Rock Topflow, the Noctua NH-C14 and the Phanteks PH-TC14CS. Depending on the case you guys will help me choose, I might swap these for a tower cooler if it improves the airflow. As far as a PSU goes, I will get a silent modular case, either a Be Quiet, Seasonic or Corsair of 550W or 650W.

So far I am unable to decide on the case choice. I have been reading reviews, watching unboxings and comparing stats to countless models and have narrowed it down to the following choices with explanation:

Cooler Master Silencio 352
Fractal Design Define Mini
Nanoxia Deep Silence 4
NZXT H2


The case I will choose needs to be: as silent as possible with noise dampening, have good airflow and provide decent cooling to stock components (not going to overclock), feature a quality built so that it will last me at least 5 years (I will not transport the case at all though) and have good dust filters on all intakes that are easy to clean (I live in a very dusty city so this is quite an issue over here). I will not be water cooling so don't really care about rad support and since I will buy a modular psu, cable management is not a top priority, but not to be overlooked. I will install an optical drive, a maximum of 2 SSDs and a maximum of 2 HDDs. I have no problem of replacing the stock fans with better options, but would prefer to keep the costs low and not have to buy fans worth half the case. Ambient temperature is quite high where I live, around 25-30 degrees Celsius most of the year and as high as 35 during the summer.

So that's basically it. No color scheme required, I like plain black and white/silver accents, and the MB and RAM will be red but since there's no window on these cases that can be ignored.

Thank you kindly.

CA_Steve
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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:28 am

Welcome to SPCR.

Just a few questions and comments before digging into case selelection:
- Are you going with uATX due to space limitations?
- Go with an i5 if the toughest application is gaming. Very few games make use of hyperthreading.
- gfx card: Be careful if selecting a cut-down sized gaming card. When you are cooling 150-170W of power, these smaller cooling solutions tend to run hotter and noisier than the full sized cards. Besides, there are plenty of cases that will fit the bigger cards. Also, the long awaited GTX 960 is rumoured to be released in January.
- Is your monitor 1080p?
- Tower CPU coolers outperform top down coolers and many uATX cases have the space for them.

Victor
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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:52 am

Thanks for your reply Steve.

I am going for mATX because I like Small/Mid tower cases and as far as I've researched these seem to be the best silent cases as opposed to full tower ATX ones. I only need to mount a GPU and another PCI slot such as a Wi-Fi card or a sound card, although if I will buy a soundcard, that will most likely be an USB one. So expandability is not a necessity. Yeah SLI might sound great, but I won't be able to afford it so have no need of cases with more than 4-5 expansion slots. I also find the design better on these small cases, somehow the full towers look way too gamerish with all the cutouts, windows, leds, sharp angles, are too heavy to be practical, and damn straight ugly.

I will use this PC for Hackintosh mostly (installing OSX) and using it as a video editing, motion graphics and photo editing workstation. I'm a Media Production Freelancer so I need it to keep working to earn my living. I currently own a 2010 MacBook Pro which is struggling to keep up with my needs. So OSX will be my main home, but I will also install Windows 7 or 8 to have a backup in case the Hackintosh will prove problematic, to run those Windows only applications and to also game every now and then. This is not intended to be a high end workstation so no Nvidia Quatro, ECC Ram or crazy raid SSDs needed. Just a decent workstation that can get the job done, at least as powerful as a fully specced iMac.

Yes I will use a 1920x1080 Display. For the time being I can only afford one display so not building this with multi display in mind.

Regarding the small form GPU, I read that the Gigabyte GTX 970 mini-ITX consumes a lot less power that a full size one so I'm guessing it will not run as hot? I can swap it for the full size version, it's almost the same price if that's the case. I will also wait for the GTX 960 to be released, but I want to start buying some of the parts as I go so need to make some decisions about the Case and CPU Cooler (posted a thread on that too). Tower coolers info is very easy to find online, but not many tests are available for top down ones.

I had the impression that a smaller signature CPU cooler provides better airflow for the case especially for m-ATX cases. All the pictures I've seen of Small/Mid cases using tower coolers look like the heatsinks are more of a plug for the rear and top exhaust and most can't even fit the case fans because of the tower size.

Please clarify if my beliefs are incorrect, I am here to learn more. Thanks!

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Vicotnik » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:27 am

Victor wrote:I had the impression that a smaller signature CPU cooler provides better airflow for the case especially for m-ATX cases. All the pictures I've seen of Small/Mid cases using tower coolers look like the heatsinks are more of a plug for the rear and top exhaust and most can't even fit the case fans because of the tower size.
There are plenty of different mATX cases. Most are like ATX cases only not as tall. If you intend to use a standard tower case then a tower cooler is probably best since you will have plenty of space for it. You will need an efficient cooler on that i7.

How about Silverstone TJ08-E?

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:20 am

I'm using a 2010 MBP as a media center PC. What an annoying fan...even from 10' away :)

I understand the need for the i7, now. Thanks.

If you want the CPU fan to be quiet, you will need a tower cooler. Top down coolers just can't provide the same level of performance as towers and in your raised ambient environment, that means high rpm/not quiet. The Scythe Kotetsu (reviewed here) is my recommendation as it's 160mm height fits most uATX vertical cases, it's inexpensive, and it's a top performer.

As for airflow through the case, a bigger concern than the tower cooler is the drive cages. If you have a smaller case and lots of drives, they'll block a fair bit of the front fan airflow. Lots of case reviews on-site for you to ponder - as well as the recent gaming builds in different form factors. Worth reading to give you a feel for the build tradeoffs.

Gigabyte mini-ITX 970 card: Haven't seen any reviews of the card. So, can't tell how much power it uses. The clock rate is slightly faster than the reference card, but below the stock overclocked cards out there. I doubt that it uses a LOT less power. The mini-ITX versions of the GTX 760 (by Asus and MSI) were much louder than their full-sized brothers.

Victor
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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:23 pm

Vicotnik wrote:How about Silverstone TJ08-E?
I did check this one out, but it lacks noise isolation so I didn't consider it further. I do like the bottom HDD/SSD combo mounting as I will be running only 2 drives for a while so no need for the cage. It has some really nice features (removable MB tray, great stock fan) and looks pretty good too, but I'm really concerned about the noise since there's no foam or dampening at all. It's quite small too, the ones I was looking at are a tad higher and roomier it seems to me. In any case do you know how the TJ-08E compares to the PS07, also from SilverStone? To me the SG-09 or 10 look more appealing in terms of airflow and performance, but I might be wrong.
CA_Steve wrote:I'm using a 2010 MBP as a media center PC. What an annoying fan...even from 10' away
Yeah it's extremely noisy at full RPM for a laptop, but the issue is that it takes ages to render even the simplest videos and succumbs to more than 2 plugins in Premiere and I can only use AE to make simple animations and basic text motion. Won't even mention working in 3D, it's such a pain. I would upgrade to a more recent MBP, but I don't need the mobility any more and even though I love the build quality of Apple products, the lack of upgradeability is tearing me apart, every 2-3 years I have to sell my old Mac, add about half of its value and buy a newer version. I'd like to have a more future proof build so that I won't have to change the entire PC when upgrading.

Thank you both for your suggestion of going with a tower cooler.

Regarding the case, I would love to build this system in a cube-like case like the HAF XB Evo, but there's no such case built for silence, only for performance, cooling, lan parties or test benches. So far the case that appeals to me the most is the Antec P280, the only problem is that it's HUGE and too expensive for my budget. So if there's anything like the P280 in smaller form factor that would be the perfect case for me.

So any thoughts about those 4 cases that I mentioned in my first post?

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:20 pm

About those 4 cases mentioned in your first post --

Fractal Mini is good -- we use it for one of our primary lab PCs. See our review on the main site. Remove as many drive cages as possible for best front-to-back airflow so your fans can spin slower.

Cooler Master Silencio 352 looks very similar to above, but CM tends to be a bit flimsier overall. Ditto Nanoxia Deep Silence 4 -- though overall quality might be similar to Fractal. NZXT H2 is an ATX tower, taller than the others by a couple inches.

"lacks noise isolation" -- presumably you mean foam damping on the panels? Mostly, this is useless. Case makers offer it because it appeals to "silent" buyers but in reality, if it is not heavy, it has no benefit whatsoever. The damping material in the Fractal actually does have some weight and does help damp the panels -- though it does very little to contain the noise within. ie, none of the "padded" walls help to contain or block noise but a few do help make the panel less prone to vibrate (in sympathy with HDDs & fans), which helps with noise.

Victor
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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:28 pm

Hello Mike, thank you for the clarifications. I did read all the reviews on the components that interested me prior to posting on the forum. I have forgotten to include the Antec Solo II in this discussion as I really like it and have great respect for Antec cases as I mentioned earlier.

I have also heard good things about the Fractal Mini from other sources. I also heard some complaints about the Nanoxia in terms of the stock fans being a bit noisy, but that could've been a bad sample. Too bad about the build quality on the Cooler Master Silencio, I really like the case and the fact that it's the only one from this list that only one 5" bay and 2 front coolers. I like the SSD vertical mount option and it really looks like a good airflow case, small but roomy especially after the hdd cage is removed.

Hmm the NZXT H2 made its way because of the nice features it has (contact fans, hdd hot swipe, plenty of usb front ports) and the internal sound isolation. It is indeed a bit on the large side and I don't like that the hdd tray is not removable and also that usb header for the front ports is horrible. Not sure if I would use all the features, better have the case on the ground and hook up a usb hub on the desk.

Your point on the sound dampening foam and other materials is quite strong and come to think about it, it makes sense to not work as intended. Sound isolation is done in the same environment that the listener resides so it might make more sense to wrap the cases in acoustic foam rather than on the inside. As long as there are no vibrations, hums or coil noises, I can live with the noise of air being pushed around as a small level of white noise can be reassuring than dead silence.

Thank you for your help, I will do a stats/reviews/features/price comparison today and post it here in order to narrow the selection down a bit. Availability will also be taken into account, but I think that it's safe to purchase a case online and not have local warranty, what can go wrong to a steel box besides the fans/cables that can be easily fixed or replaced, right?

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by MikeC » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:43 pm

The inside of the PC is the right place for damping sheets, not the outside, but the reason it doesn't really work for sound absorption and blocking is because it just isn't thick enough, and there are too many holes through which sound can exit anyway.

We did some basic testing of damping's acoustic effects many years ago and that was enough to show how little effect it had. With the density, mass and thickness of materials that can be put on the inside panels, it has virtually no effect on mid or lower frequencies. I'm talking about 1kHz. As the freq increases, even the thin layer that can be applied has some effect, but when you consider the ventilation holes that need to be in cases, you can see why the overall effect would still be minuscule.

What we look for in cases is...
1) baffles so vent holes don't provide direct sound paths to the user
2) excellent low impedance venting so fans can run slower & quieter\
3) sturdy build quality -- getting harder to find all the time. Most are somewhat flimsy, even the ones we rated tops, when compared with gear from a decade ago -- like the Antec Solo, P180, etc, though those have other flaws. Main prob with current cases: Thinner sheet metal with too many holes in them for good structural rigidity. But they generally have better airflow than older cases.
4) good quality fans

The Define Mini is a good choice. Probably the CM would work OK too, though I can't recall the quality of fans in the last CM we reviewed. If you like the looks & features, go for it, there's no need to agonize over your options; in truth, almost any half decent case can be made to run very quietly; the acoustics of what you put inside has more impact, as long as the case doesn't impede cooling.

Victor
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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:38 pm

Thanks for the followup Mike and sorry for the late reply. I evaluated the options a bit more and I removed the Antec and SilverStone from the list. Here are my thoughts so far:

The CM one has to be the most appealing, but there is a problem with the maximum accepted CPU heatsink height. It's 155 mm so that means that the Scythe Kotetsu will not fit in this case and since most performance tower heatsinks are 160 mm I'm afraid air cooling is not a viable option for a powerful build. It also lacks a fan controller and the case fans are noisy on high rpm, but have great AF and SP. Also where I live it's the cheapest of the lot, almost half the price of the Define Mini. I have to say the water cooling features on this case are amazing, all vents are filtered which is a rare thing to see, the I/O ports are perfect imo and the vertical SSD mounts are a great feature also. Too bad cable management is so limited, I wonder if it's that cost effective to cut out less holes and punch less cable tie hooks... I guess with a fully modular PSU that won't be too much of an issue though. This case really tempts me to do a WC setup both for CPU and GPU, it seems to excel in that field. Come to think about it, I don't think there's any other way to go with this case :)

Up next the Define Mini is the most expensive of the lot, but it does look well built. However I don't like that the bottom HDD cage is fixed, I find the bottom fan mount strangely positioned and quite useless for most builds, and the side panel fan mount also unusual, why cut the panel when it's noise isolated? Ok, you can keep it plugged, but I really don't see people installing a fan there, it does make for annoying times when opening the panel is needed. I have to admit, cable management is a lot better than on the CM, but this too is missing a few well placed cable tie hooks. One thing I don't understand on this case is the fan controller. Seriously, what PC user in this world would prefer to get to the back of the case to fiddle with a knob? Imagine having the case below your desk in a limited space with tight runs to the power plug. Not to mention the mess it makes when it comes to cable management. I don't even want to think how a panel fan + controller setup might work. And seriously only one USB 3 in the front. At this price point they could've done better and think these features more throughly. Hope to see a Define Mini R2 in the near future, it sure deserves an upgrade.

Last but not least the rather obscure and overlooked Nanoxia. There's something about this case that says quality and thoughtful design. It only has 1 fan mount on the front unfortunately, but the included one looks better on paper that the one the Define carries, although people tend to complain about the noise, but any fan can be changed in the end. There's also a built in 2 channel fan controller on the front (!) that can support 3 fans each for a total of 6 fans. I initially thought this was very strange as the case only has 3 fan mounts, but then I discovered that it gives flexibility so one might hook up the CPU fan to one and the case fans to the other or mix and match as they please. There is also a 5,25" to 3,5" frame included so one can finally mount an 3,5 HDD outside the designated cage area. Speaking of HDD cages, I think the Nanoxia case has the implementation I've seen so far. 3 cages, for 1, 2 and 3 drives out of which the 2 and 3 are removable so one can do any setup of 1, 3, 4 or 5 drives or just remove them for better airflow. I very much like this as I will be placing one ssd in the bottom, remove the other 2 and put one HDD in the drive bay using that frame I mentioned earlier. Would have loved to see vertical ssd mounts instead and have all the cages removed with the option of a 140mm fan on the bottom. Cable management is limited here too, missing loads of hooks. Really wonder if their absence cuts the price marginally.

So in conclusion I see the Cooler Master Silencio 352 as the go-to mATX case for AIO water cooling, the Fractal Design Define Mini as the more expensive option that has great air cooling and solid build, but a few embarrassing mistakes and the Nanoxia Deep Silence 4 as the best PFP (price/feature/performance) choice. If only it had dual 120mm front fans...

I would really love to see a company come out and deliver a marriage of these 3 cases so we won't have to resort to Kickstarter again (like with the Ncase M1).

Guys please let me know what you think about my analysis, maybe you can think of workarounds or have knowledge that can prove some of these facts wrong as most of them were taken from online sources, reviews and youtube videos :))

Happy New Year!

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Pappnaas » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:01 am

Any bottom fan mount is to be preferred over any front intake, just because it is not restricted by the front fascia.

Back in the days of SS-350 we used to cut a bottom hole to get noise free air for intake. This ruined your case, but achieved near silence.

And dust filters, if you have read the latest articles posted in SPCR you could have observed the impact of restricted dust filter mesh.

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:53 am

But isn't the bottom case clearance similar to the one provided by the front fascia and it's cutouts and vent slits?

For me that wouldn't be such a great improvement because I live in an extremely dusty city and also have a cat so the amount of dust and hair that would get swept by the bottom fan would definitely be greater than by the front fan. That's also why I have such a preference for dust filters, I don't want to vacuum the entire case every month, I'd rather be able to easily wash the filters and have a few degrees of heat as a drawback. I've owned a non filtered case years ago that only had a non-filtered intake fan and had to take out the heatsink and give it a proper bath once every 3 weeks. I still have the fans and the only way to clean the gunk from the blades is with acetone and you know what that does to plastic.

Anyway the only case with a bottom filtered intake is the Define Mini and I'm still balancing it's fairly minor design flaws against the other 2.

I have an idea though. What if I use AIO Water Cooling in the Silencio 352 and setup all the fans for exhaust? I mean place a 240mm rad in the front to exhaust, place a 120mm rad in the back to exhaust and also put a 120mm in the top also to exhaust or leave it empty for natural convection. Common sense tells me it won't perform well, but does anyone have any experience with a similar setup. Would it be better to use only a 120mm rad in the front, but keep a 120mm fan to intake?

Thanks for the input.

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by xan_user » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:28 pm

When I go to replace/fix/install a pc and I see traces of pets with hair, I always make a big case for getting the PC way off the floor, filters or not.

Filters are a minimum requirement imo, if the computer must be on the floor for some reason.

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by CA_Steve » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:16 pm

xan_user wrote:When I go to replace/fix/install a pc and I see traces of pets with hair, I always make a big case for getting the PC way off the floor, filters or not.
+1

It's as simple as buying a sturdy wooden shelf cut to size with feet on the bottom to get it above the floor. Then put the PC on this very low shelf.

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:36 pm

Yes I know. I don't have a large enough desk to accommodate the case and I can mask some of the noise by placing the case on the far end of my desk as my bed is at the other side. Even if the cat hair is avoidable for the best part, you have no idea the amount of dust that settles in my home on a weekly basis. Having a case without enough fan filters is plain stupid in my case so that's definitely a priority for me.

Anyway, do you guys have any experience with the cases I proposed, mainly the Cooler Master Silencio 352, Fractal Design Define Mini and the Nanoxia Deep Silence 4? Looking for stock air cooling at the moment, but might invest in a decent water cooling in the future be it AIO or custom made as long as it doesn't break the bank...

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by MPZ » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:02 am

Victor wrote:Yes I know. I don't have a large enough desk to accommodate the case and I can mask some of the noise by placing the case on the far end of my desk as my bed is at the other side. Even if the cat hair is avoidable for the best part, you have no idea the amount of dust that settles in my home on a weekly basis. Having a case without enough fan filters is plain stupid in my case so that's definitely a priority for me.

Anyway, do you guys have any experience with the cases I proposed, mainly the Cooler Master Silencio 352, Fractal Design Define Mini and the Nanoxia Deep Silence 4? Looking for stock air cooling at the moment, but might invest in a decent water cooling in the future be it AIO or custom made as long as it doesn't break the bank...
I'm not very experienced withe building silent pc's but I have to chime in here because I'm working on a ridiculously similar build. I'm using the same graphics card, have considered all the same cases, and probably the same power supplies (definitely the same brands).

In any event, to be brief, I would suggest you worry a little less about acoustic foam/dampening, and a little more about a case that can really support a build at the power level you are going for. Personally, I am pretty much settled on the Aerocool DS (Dead Silent) Cube.

Why?
-Baffling on both the front intake and the bottom of the case (for the psu fan, unless you choose a fanless one)
- a 200mm front intake- for maximum cfm per rpm ratio (I'm thinking about the Enermax UCTA18A- if the specs are to be believed it can push 116.55 cfm at 600rpm and 15 dba- oh, and yes it can mount to 200mm)
-A horizontal motherboard layout, meaning support for essentially any gpu (over 13cm length supported) and cpu cooler (up to 19cm), and less stress on the motherboard due to it not having to fight gravity to hold heavy parts, and... well, there are many perks.
-The option to not only use a 140mm rear exhaust fan, but add a pair to the roof as well, or leave it completely sealed.

Hopefully that helps, and best of luck on your build- we should absolutely compare results.
-MPZ

Victor
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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:55 am

Hi MPZ. Thank you for your reply. I also have a soft spot for "cube" cases and did infact check this model too. The thing that put me most off the Aerocool DS Cube is that there are no dust filters on the fan intakes, just a teeny tiny one on the PSU intakes. Dust is really an issue for me so much that even with good airflow, I find myself brushing the MB and GPU quite often and the buildup that is formed in a couple years is ridiculous. Actually this is an issue I find with all mATX cube cases, there isn't one on the market that has dust filters on all intakes.

I narrowed down my options to either the Cooler Master Silencio 352 or the Fractal Design Define Mini. The price of the Silencio is unbeatable, for the price I would have to pay on the Define Mini, I can get the Silencio, the Scythe Kotetsu CPU Cooler, a CM XtraFlo 120mm Slim 15mm fan for the top mount and change all the 120mm fans to the underappreciated Yate Loon D12SL. I also plan to get the be quiet! Dark Power Pro 10 PSU which has exactly 4 fan connectors so I can have the PSU PWM the case fans and let the MB controller PWM the CPU cooler so I can just forget about fan controlling entirely. The PSU is also 550W which is more than I will ever need, the Seasonic X Series start at 650W unfortunately.

That's the mindset at the moment anyway. Too bad I can't find a "cube" with similar features, I really like the idea of horizontal MB, isolated PSU chamber, huge fan mounts and of course the whole no-nonsense symmetrical cube-like design which is quite appealing to my taste.

Good luck with your build too, we should definitely compare results, but I imagine it's going to take me a few good months to build as I can't afford to pay it all in one go so components will be purchased on a monthly basis.

Cheers,
Vic

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Lucky Luciano » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:22 pm

Cooler Master Silencio 352 was on my shortlist but the primitive drive cage prevented me to buy it because I knew I was in for a lot of HDD noise. I got the old 550 instead which had plsatic HDD rails which at least I could replace with some silicone on the sides to get rid of seek noise. Otherwise the 352 seems like it's good a case for the money, at least here in .ro. However I now regret not going straight for a FD Define Mini.

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Re: Need help choosing mATX case for powerful build

Post by Victor » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:37 pm

Yes I am also from RO and it's a steal at the price, it's about half the FD Mini so it makes things fit more easily into my budget. I will be looking at just one SSHD (besides the main SSD) which I plan to mount in the 3.5 drive bay at the top of the case that's usually for SD card readers, floppy drives or fan controllers. I probably won't be using the drive cage at all, I prefer to use external drives both for scratch disk and for storage. And since I can't afford a RAID Array, there's really no use for the cage.

I do hope that the drive bays are sturdy as with most cases, they are.

But if I can manage to afford the FD Mini, I will most likely go with it in the end.

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