micro-ATX build: P5B-VM + NSK-3300 + which CPU cooler?

[AlpineCarver]

i'm planning a micro-ATX build using:

• antec NSK-3300 case
  asus P5B-VM mother board
  one hard drive, bottom-mounted
  one PCIe card - an OpenGL-oriented graphics card

i'd like the system to be reasonably quiet, with minimal time and expense.

my current thinking is to passively cool the CPU (scythe ninja without fan installed) and maximize air flow through the case by running the included 120mm exhaust fan and adding 2x92mm intake fans, all undervolted to 5 volts or 7 volts. if this set-up doesn't cool adequately, i could install the ninja's fan and/or increase the case fan voltages.

my biggest concern is fitting the ninja into the NSK-3300 plus P5B-VM. i've scoured this site and others, and have found various instances of (ninja + P5B-VM) and (ninja + NSK-3300), but no reports of anyone using all 3 components together (ninja + P5B-VM + NSK-3300). if anyone can confirm that these 3 components will fit together, please let me know.

alternatively, if anyone has another cooling strategy for the (NSK-3300 + P5B-VM), i'd love to hear about it. the only example i've found using these two components is user "boze", who's using the akasa evo 120 from SidewinderComputers.com, but i'd like to see if i can find a solution that has better whole-case airflow, for the other components in my system.

in case anyone has any feedback about other components, here is my full list:

• case/PS - antec NSK-3300
  MB - asus P5B-VM micro-ATX
  CPU - intel core2duo E6400 (2.13GHz, 1066FSB, 2MB Cache, power: 65W)
  vid - PNY Quadro FX 560 PCIe 128MB (power: 30W)
  OS - Win XP Pro
  HD - Western Digital WD5000KS 500 GB SATA (or WD5000AAKS?)
  DVD - Samsung SH-S183L (SATA, small enough for ATX PS upgrade)
  cooler - Scythe SCNJ-1100P Ninja Plus Rev. B 120mm
  mem - patriot PDC22G6400LLK 2 GB kit (DDR2-800, PC2-6400, 4-4-4-12)
  (alternative memory) corsair TWIN2X2048-6400C4 2 GB kit
  (alternative memory) ocz OCZ2P800R22GK 2 GB kit

i'd really appreciate any feedback of any type!

[Moogles]

I don't have an NSK3300, but I am looking to replace my TJ08 with an NSK3400 (same as the 3300 but with a regular ATX powersupply instead of those odd SFX ones).

Since the case dimensions are virtually identical, the TJ08 and the NSK3(3)400 don't really differ much, so what'll work in a TJ08 should work in a NSK3300.

I've been tinkering with my setup for a bit and come to the conclusion that the intake fan is pointless. I run a XFX 7950GT and an Akasa EVO-120 cooled E6600, and the difference in temperatures between letting the intake fan run, and turning it off, is less than 3 degrees at load for my GPU, and about 1 degree for my CPU.

I have 2 harddisks in my computer. A 250GB seagate situated approximately where the grommets would be in an NSK3300 (drilled holes in the bottom of my case) and a 74GB Raptor that's situated in a 5.25" bay.
The seagate gets practically 0 airflow (it's right underneath my 7950GT's big heatsink) and it only reaches 42 degrees. The raptor gets a lot of airflow since the EVO 120's fan sucks most of the air from the opening in the front of my 5.25" and doesn't exceed 39 degrees during load.

As an experiment two days ago, I removed my case fan and ducted the EVO to the exhaust hole. This worked beautifully as temperatures barely rose (I think 1 degree for my CPU and nothing for my GPU). Even without the duct the rise in temperatures is barely noticeable.

So I am currently running my computer with JUST the EVO120's fan (and the Corsair HX520's fan) and my CPU never exceeds 45 degrees. The highest temperature my GPU has recorded was 84 degrees.

I wanted a small, quiet case with good airflow, which is why I started with 3 120mm fans. Never would I have guessed that I can comfortably run these high end components with just a single fan, at cool temperatures.

Some comments about your hardware...

- I don't like the P5B-VM. It's overpriced, has poor onboard audio (cracks a lot) and thankfully there's an alternative now! ABIT Fatal1ty F-I90HD! It's pretty much the motherboard everyone has been waiting for, and it's cheaper than the P5B-VM as well. I would urge you to look into this.

- No reason to get the 3300 when the 3400 has been released. Not familiar with 3300 pricing, but if there'a a premium for the 3400 I'm sure it's justified as you won't need to worry about finding an SFX powersupply should your default one fail.

- I don't understand why you'd get a Quadro over a regular consumer graphics card? If your graphic needs aren't too extreme, I think the ABIT Fatal1ty F-I90HD's onboard ATI Radeon Xpress 1250 should be sufficient. The board has built-in HDMI out, but ships with an HDMI -> DVI converter. So you'll have a perfect digital picture.

- Your choice of DVD drive is fine, but my personal preference would be Asus' 1814BLT. It has a better looking bezel and some marketing buzzwords about quietness. I think they're identically priced, and virtually the same length (not sure about the Samsung, but the Asus is 173mm).

- Memory. If you opt for OCZ memory with an Asus P5B-VM, I think you'll have some problems. P5B-VM supports a max DDR2 voltage of 1.9v. If I'm not mistaken, OCZ's memory often requires more than that to run at spec.

- Heatsink... obviously nothing wrong with a Ninja, but I would really look at the EVO120. I think it's the perfect cooler for the 3300/3400/TJ08.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

[AlpineCarver]

thanks for the detailed reply!

The highest temperature my GPU has recorded was 84 degrees.

isn't that hotter than is healthy for any component? i'd certainly like to keep everything a bit cooler, if possible.

I don't like the P5B-VM. It's overpriced, has poor onboard audio (cracks a lot) and thankfully there's an alternative now! ABIT Fatal1ty F-I90HD!

poor audio doesn't matter to me; we won't be using it. my son will be installing avid xpress studio, which includes an external, USB-based audio box. but i will certainly check out the ABIT board. if it's new, there probably won't be any user reports about which coolers fit...

No reason to get the 3300 when the 3400 has been released.

i'd be happy to get the 3400, if i could find one in the U.S. do you know of a source? (i'm in a big enough hurry that i pretty much need it to be shipped from stock right now, not "soon").

I don't understand why you'd get a Quadro over a regular consumer graphics card?

my son is planning to run video editing and special effects software that recommends an OpenGL-optimized graphics card.

Your choice of DVD drive is fine, but my personal preference would be Asus' 1814BLT. It has a better looking bezel and some marketing buzzwords about quietness. I think they're identically priced, and virtually the same length (not sure about the Samsung, but the Asus is 173mm).

the samsung is 3mm shorter may help if i can find an NSK-3400 or mod my NSK-3300 to take a full ATX power supply.

Memory. If you opt for OCZ memory with an Asus P5B-VM, I think you'll have some problems. P5B-VM supports a max DDR2 voltage of 1.9v. If I'm not mistaken, OCZ's memory often requires more than that to run at spec.

would either of the two alternates i listed in my original post be better?
also, do you have any idea which would be best with the ABIT motherboard?

Heatsink... obviously nothing wrong with a Ninja, but I would really look at the EVO120. I think it's the perfect cooler for the 3300/3400/TJ08.

your strategy is completely the opposite of what i was thinking: CPU cooler is the only fan in the system vs. my thought of no CPU fan, but lots of case fans. i'll have to chew on that; may very well give it a try.

[Erssa]

i'd be happy to get the 3400, if i could find one in the U.S. do you know of a source? (i'm in a big enough hurry that i pretty much need it to be shipped from stock right now, not "soon").

I guess it's sometimes nice to live in Finland. I got my NSK3400 almost 3 weeks ago (sorry for rubbing it in). Paid 88 euros for it. NSK3300 costs about the same here, so there was practically no price premium.

[AlpineCarver]

i went and checked out the ABIT Fatal1ty F-I90HD. it looks like a great board. unfortunately, it won't work for me because i need an ieee 1394 / firewire port (don't want to add a PCI card just for that). also, the upgraded graphics won't help me, since i won't be using the on-board graphics.

that said, i'd still be happy to hear about alternatives to the P5B-VM, if there are others that would fit my application better.

thanks.

[AlpineCarver]

I guess it's sometimes nice to live in Finland. I got my NSK3400 almost 3 weeks ago (sorry for rubbing it in).

yeah, go ahead and rub it in. i'm sure we're waiting for our government bureaucrats to certify that it won't interefere with our TV sets and celphones...

[AlpineCarver]

... I am looking to replace my TJ08 with an NSK3400

just curious: these cases are so similar, why bother switching from one to the other?

[Moogles]

... I am looking to replace my TJ08 with an NSK3400

just curious: these cases are so similar, why bother switching from one to the other?

Not pleased with the build quality of the TJ08. Aside from the frontpanel... it's flimsy. I can't stop the panels from resonating, it's quite annoying. I also have another (old) mATX computer that I can put in the TJ08, so it won't be going to waste.

Some random replies...

- I'd go with the Corsair memory, although the Patriot is probably just as good. It's still high performance ram that'll probably require more than 1.9v (the max the P5B-VM can give), but at least it'll boot on 1.8v. Something the OCZ probably won't.
- I don't know of a US dealer for a 3400, unfortunately.
- When I built my computer (a bit over 2 months ago) I considered the P5B-VM but discarded it because of its PCI slot layout. Turns out I never needed 2 PCI slots to begin with, and I may have ended up with a lame duck of a motherboard (Intel DG965OT) instead. Although the Intel does have firewire (I think, I'm actually not 100% sure), it only accepts 1.8v memory meaning you'll be limited to valueram. So if you stumble across it in your quest to find a mobo better than the P5B-VM, be aware. Also, not having anyone confirm whether or not a Ninja would fit, didn't make it any easier.
- My GPU temperature is high, but it's a passively cooled card and unless I place a fan directly on top of it (completely defeating the purpose of a passively cooled card in the first place), I can't really get that down much lower. With 3 120MM nexus fans and my Corsair's fan, it'll still get up to 78 degrees under max load. It shows no signs of artifacting or any other heat related problems, nVIDIA's temperature monitor doesn't even start throttling until 130 degrees, so I'm fine with it.
- Inititally my goal was also to have nothing but casefans and use a passively cooled CPU and GPU, but I couldn't find any confirmation online about whether a Ninja or Noctua would fit on my motherboard. I didn't want to risk buying a heatsink I can't use, so I opted for the EVO120.

[AlpineCarver]

i dug a little deeper and found that the P5B-VM offically supports DDR2-800 memory only at 1.8V / 5-5-5. (found this on the newegg p5b-vm specs page. it wasn't mentioned on the asus website's specs page, and i have yet to successfully download the manual from the asus website.)

the following 2 memory kits conform to that spec, are inexpensive, and have reviews on newegg reporting success in the P5B-VM:

• mushkin 996527 (2 GB kit, DDR2-800, PC2-6400, 5-5-5-12, 1.8V)
  a-data ADQVE1A16K (2 GB kit, DDR2-800, PC2-6400, 5-5-5-18, 1.8V)

i'm going to order the mushkin.

thanks for clueing me into this; i probably would have made a costly mistake otherwise!

[derekchinese]

You do know though that without overclocking, you can only make use of 533mhz pc2 4200 ram right? 800mhz is necessary if you want to overclock, but if your just running at stock, save your money and buy some 533mhz, there will be absolutely no difference between your 800mhz ram running at 533mhz and 533mhz ram running at stock speed.

Just my 2 cents.

Derek

[AlpineCarver]

You do know though that without overclocking, you can only make use of 533mhz pc2 4200 ram right?

no, i didn't know that. i'm not interested in overclocking. the manufacturer's specs include support for the 800 MHz RAM without mentioning overclocking, so i assumed the system would just clock the RAM asynchronously to the FSB. (as described in this article). the difference in performance is only a few percent, but the difference in price is the memory is only a few percent of the system price, so i figured i'd go for it.

anyway, i've already placed an order for the 800 MHz RAM, and i think i'm too lazy to try to cancel it and shop for yet another version.

[Erssa]

my current thinking is to passively cool the CPU (scythe ninja without fan installed) and maximize air flow through the case by running the included 120mm exhaust fan and adding 2x92mm intake fans, all undervolted to 5 volts or 7 volts. if this set-up doesn't cool adequately, i could install the ninja's fan and/or increase the case fan voltages.

I guess it depends on your definition of adequate cooling. Here's a link to my general gallery thread of my NSK3400 build. And here's a picture of the almost final product. I only added the scythe fan infront of the HD and disconnected the VF900 fan. I have blocked the front intake with foam. My rear nexus and that scythe fan are running at 800rpm and are quieter then the S12 at minimun rpm. My enclosed raptor is running at 40 celsius atm, I am currently defragging. My room temp is 22 celsius. The passive Ninja is keeping my x2 3800+ at 47 celsius atm. I have been loading the computer with some programs for couple of hours and the cpu usage is around 30%. I think those temps are more then adequate, even without front fans. Imo front intakes are the biggest source of noise in computer cases, I had to block it to prevent the HD noises from escaping.

my biggest concern is fitting the ninja into the NSK-3300 plus P5B-VM. i've scoured this site and others, and have found various instances of (ninja + P5B-VM) and (ninja + NSK-3300), but no reports of anyone using all 3 components together (ninja + P5B-VM + NSK-3300). if anyone can confirm that these 3 components will fit together, please let me know.

My config is NSK3400, Asus A8N-VM CSM + Ninja. You can compare the socket placement of A8N-VM and P5B-VM and draw conclusions.

http://www.asus.com/prog_content/middle ... model=1312

http://www.asus.com/prog_content/middle ... ?model=766

http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/emreko/NSK3400/IMG_0076.jpg

I think it might fit, but it's going to be a close fit.

alternatively, if anyone has another cooling strategy for the (NSK-3300 + P5B-VM), i'd love to hear about it. the only example i've found using these two components is user "boze", who's using the akasa evo 120 from SidewinderComputers.com, but i'd like to see if i can find a solution that has better whole-case airflow, for the other components in my system.

I think there are plenty of other good heatsinks to choose, I bought Ninja, because it was pretty cheap at 46 euros.

[AlpineCarver]

You can compare the socket placement of A8N-VM and P5B-VM and draw conclusions.

http://www.asus.com/prog_content/middle ... model=1312

http://www.asus.com/prog_content/middle ... ?model=766

http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/emreko/NSK3400/IMG_0076.jpg

I think it might fit, but it's going to be a close fit.

this looks bad. i enlarged and overlaid those two motherboard images in adobe illustrator, and i think the ninja will be about 4mm closer to the power supply with the P5B-VM. judging by the photo of your system, it doesn't look like there are 4mm to spare...

[jessekopelman]

this looks bad. i enlarged and overlaid those two motherboard images in adobe illustrator, and i think the ninja will be about 4mm closer to the power supply with the P5B-VM. judging by the photo of your system, it doesn't look like there are 4mm to spare...

To make things worse, with an NSK3300, your cabling from the PSU come out the side adjacent to the CPU socket, not above it like on the NSK3400. As someone who has an NSK3300, I appreciate that change just as much as the switch to a standard ATX PSU. I have an Asrock MB with the socket right on the edge. It is impossible to use any heatsink wider than 95 mm and that pretty much eliminates all the top contenders. Of course, if you are willing to give up the idea of passive cooling, you'll realize that a C2D doesn't need much and even a moderate heatsink with a good fan can do the trick and be virtually silent. Given the amount of noise even the quietest PSU and HD make, perhaps a little too much thought is given to passive CPU cooling?

[AlpineCarver]

Of course, if you are willing to give up the idea of passive cooling, you'll realize that a C2D doesn't need much and even a moderate heatsink with a good fan can do the trick and be virtually silent. Given the amount of noise even the quietest PSU and HD make, perhaps a little too much thought is given to passive CPU cooling?

in the end, i'll have to do whatever works. if i can't fit the ninja, i'll probably try the EVO-120 that Moogles suggested.

apart from noise issues, passive also appeals to me for its fail-safe character. in my experience, fans are often the thing that fails first in a computer. with fans cooling individual components, a single fan failure may bring the system down or even damage a component. on the other hand, if your components are all passively cooled, with 2 or 3 case fans, the system degrades gracefully in the face of one or even two fan failures.

ideally, i'd prefer also to passively cool my video card - a PNY quadro fx 560. unfortunately, i doubt there exists a passive vga cooler that would work well in an NSK-3300.

[AlpineCarver]

To make things worse, with an NSK3300, your cabling from the PSU come out the side adjacent to the CPU socket, not above it like on the NSK3400.

could this be remedied simply by cutting a hole in the sheet metal? (i have a sheet metal nibbler)

[jessekopelman]

apart from noise issues, passive also appeals to me for its fail-safe character. in my experience, fans are often the thing that fails first in a computer. with fans cooling individual components, a single fan failure may bring the system down or even damage a component. on the other hand, if your components are all passively cooled, with 2 or 3 case fans, the system degrades gracefully in the face of one or even two fan failures.

ideally, i'd prefer also to passively cool my video card - a PNY quadro fx 560. unfortunately, i doubt there exists a passive vga cooler that would work well in an NSK-3300.

I don't buy this argument. In this situation passively cooled doesn't really mean passively cooled, it just means that the case fan is responsible for the airflow on all heatsinks/components. So, if that single case fan fails, you are in a world of hurt. Having the case fan plus a fan specifically coupled (direct mount, duct, whatever) to a given component is what gives you a failsafe. Now if we were talking true passive cooling (i.e. no fans, just convection for airflow), it would be a different story.

Fitting a passive VGA cooler is going to be more an issue of MB layout and how many expansion cards you use than NSK3300. The case is pretty wide, so coolers that stick up "above" the VGA card should fit with no problem.

[jessekopelman]

To make things worse, with an NSK3300, your cabling from the PSU come out the side adjacent to the CPU socket, not above it like on the NSK3400.

could this be remedied simply by cutting a hole in the sheet metal? (i have a sheet metal nibbler)

Sure. If you've got the tools, you might as well go ahead and mod the compartment to fit a standard ATX PSU while you're at it. The included PSU is far louder than even a moderate heatsink with a decent fan is going to be. My heatsink has a 80 mm fan that runs at 1300 RPM when the system is not under extreme load and it is far quieter than the PSU.

[Erssa]

The included PSU is far louder than even a moderate heatsink with a decent fan is going to be. My heatsink has a 80 mm fan that runs at 1300 RPM when the system is not under extreme load and it is far quieter than the PSU.

Well, that's not a suprise. That fan is very likely quieter then even a S12 at it's lowest rpm. Just look at the 80mm fan round-up, those fans were under 18 dBA@1m when running at 1300rpm. S12 should be ~20dBA, when running at minimum rpm.

[AlpineCarver]

... passive also appeals to me for its fail-safe character. in my experience, fans are often the thing that fails first in a computer. with fans cooling individual components, a single fan failure may bring the system down or even damage a component. on the other hand, if your components are all passively cooled, with 2 or 3 case fans, the system degrades gracefully in the face of one or even two fan failures.

I don't buy this argument. In this situation passively cooled doesn't really mean passively cooled, it just means that the case fan is responsible for the airflow on all heatsinks/components. So, if that single case fan fails, you are in a world of hurt.

i'm thinking 3 case fans, not just one. if one fails, everything gets a little warmer, but no one component has a catastrophic failure.

[jessekopelman]

... passive also appeals to me for its fail-safe character. in my experience, fans are often the thing that fails first in a computer. with fans cooling individual components, a single fan failure may bring the system down or even damage a component. on the other hand, if your components are all passively cooled, with 2 or 3 case fans, the system degrades gracefully in the face of one or even two fan failures.

I don't buy this argument. In this situation passively cooled doesn't really mean passively cooled, it just means that the case fan is responsible for the airflow on all heatsinks/components. So, if that single case fan fails, you are in a world of hurt.

i'm thinking 3 case fans, not just one. if one fails, everything gets a little warmer, but no one component has a catastrophic failure.

From either a noise or redundancy situation, what's the difference between 3 case fans and a fanless CPU heatsink and 2 case fans and a CPU heatsink with fan? Realistically, in the all case fan scenario there is still only going to be one fan that is particularly close to the CPU heatsink and if it fails you are in trouble. Take a look at where the fan mounts actually are in the NSK3300. It is a long way from the 2 front 92mm mounts to the CPU socket . . .

[MikeC]

84C for a GPU at load is not hot. It'll easily get to 100C.

(Fact is, that kind of temp (in fact, >100C) is routinely seen in CPUs as well. There is more than one sensor, one to simulate outer casing temp, and another to be monitored internally for emergency shutdown -- which happens at something like 125C.)

[AlpineCarver]

my components arrived today, and i test-fitted them.

the ninja heat sink, mounted on the P5B-VM, comes right to the edge of the main compartment of the NSK-3300 case. there is defnitely not enough room for the cables to pass through the hole there.

i believe i can make a simple mod to make it all fit. will report back after i've tried it.

[AlpineCarver]

i've completed my build, and it's gone very well, but it required a simple modification to the case. click this link for details.